Curse

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 27, 2007, 11:09 PM // 23:09

note: this post is written purely from GvG point of view.

I've been playing GvG for about 1.5 years and have always enjoyed it immensely, however ever since the release of GW:F the 'metagame' has shifted more and more to one-dimensional (gimmick) builds. Builds that are usually poorly adaptable and only win because they abuse certain maps/game mechanics.

I realise that such builds have always existed and will always exist, and I don't think it's neccesarily bad for the game (plenty of inventinve skill uses have come forth out of these builds) however I do think that in the current state, they are far too powerful. Especially in tournament games where you can play on your own map with 100% certainty.

As seen in the Celestial Tournament it has mainly become a guessing game, of what build/map the opponent will use, and try to change your build accordingly. This is a bad thing in my opinion, because it not only results in less build diversity but also effectively changes the game into Build Wars. Player skill and teamplay are reduced to nothing more than minor details, and your only chance at beating some builds on certain maps is pulling of a lucky gank or hoping your opponent makes a major mistake. (this in turn led to not many teams wanting their matches to be shown on 'observer' because they would give away potential builds for future rounds to their opponents)

Apart from the obvious problems with the Celestial Tournament, like scheduling matches/timezone difference etc. the main problem was giving the teams the chance to pick their own maps in secrecy, giving the team with the first choice an (unfair) advantage over the other one. And of course people used this to their advantage by running builds that took full advantage of their map.
You can't really fault teams for doing this, as it increases their chances to win yet it doesn't make for very exciting matches.

I think the main problems with competitive GW are this:

1) Maps

There are maps that strongly favor one dimensional builds and thus ensure that guilds that are running a 'normal' build are at a disadvantage.
I believe Jade Isle is being worked on at the moment, so I hope this will be a bit better, however there's a lot more maps that are similar.

Jade Isle: Nearly impossible to split on versus good teams at the moment (being fixed)

Burning Isle: This one isn't too bad but it's still pretty tricky to split on this one, it's also a very strong map for melandrus dervishes and searing flame eles. (I wouldn't really know what to change here, maybe widen the choke points a little bit)

Corrupted Isle: Evertyhing about this map scream 'split' (Make a path in between the flagstand area and the 'backdoor' path or add teleporters)

Isle of the Weeping Stone: This map is also pretty nasty to split on, unlike Corrupted Isle this map DOES have a path in between, however it can only be opened by a lever on one side of it. If you ever fought a recall split on this map you will know what I'm talking about. (This might be more of an issue with Recall than a map design issue, but it might be a cool idea to put levers on both side of the center gate except requiring the guild thief to open the gate from the flagstand side)

Druid's Isle: This is actually one of my favorite maps, the only issue I really have with this one is how incredibly strong recall is on it, you can teleport from the enemy base directly to the flagstand and vice versa. (Once again more of a Recall issue, if Recall is changed, keep this map as it is!)

Warrior's/Hunter's/Wizard's Isle: These maps are fine except for the randomness of the catapult hits, which can effectively decide games purely based on luck. (Make the catapult hit a certain area, or provide a way to 'aim' where it's gonna land.)

However instead of changing the maps (except for catapult randomness, this really has to be dealt with) I think it's a much better idea to, either completely randomize what maps you play on OR (and I like this one even better) give each guild a number of maps in the 'map pool' they can 'thumbs down' this means that when 2 guilds get matched they will play on a random map that neither of them has thumbed down. Of course this number needs an acceptable limit, so guilds can't simply 'thumb down' all maps except for the ones that complement their one dimensional build. Additionally when new maps get implemented, others can get 'phased out' or when imbalances arise on certain maps they could temporarily be taken out of the map pool. (This is the system Warcraft III uses for their ladder system, and I think it works really well)

2) Game Mechanics

Soul Reaping:
Then there's game mechanics that are imbalanced, the main one is obviously soul reaping working on spirits, it's been nerfed before and needs to get nerfed again, for people unfamiliar with the concept:
Basically a team has any number in between 4 and 8 necros that have pretty much endless energy because of the spirits dying left and right.

Such builds usually couple a very strong defense coupled with a spike of some sort, splitting is pretty much the only way of beating this apart from running a total counterbuild (which on ladder is just not viable).

"Victory or Death":
I'm not going to spend much time on this one, but I think (and I'm not alone in this thought) that the "Victory or Death" system enforces 'gimmick' builds, both the huge role NPCs play at VoD and the fact that health is decreased and damage is amplified make area of effect damage really strong at VoD.
In essence VoD is really cool as it prevents teams from endlessly 'turtling' in their base, however the power of AoE effects and spikes at vod can enforce people to just defend their base until 20 minutes without making any attempt at offensive strategy. I don't think defensive play like this should be rewarded but at the same time I wouldn't really know what to do about this one.

Hexes:
Another thing that I think is flawed, is the hex system. Mainly so-called 'warrior shutdown' (e.g. stuff like price of failure, spirit of failure etc.) is really rigged in my opinion. Teams couple 'miss' hexes like price/spirit/reckless haste/blurred vision with stuff like Aegis, Shield of Deflection and Weapon of Warding, the result of this is basically warriors and other 'physicals' are completely worthless. While it's true that hexes can be removed, the relatively short cooldown of the shutdown hexes just means they're put right back on.

I have several ideas on how to 'fix' this, first and foremost I think there should be a 'maximum miss rate' (much like attack speed cap, snare cap , etc.) which could be set at say 50-66% so that you can't keep stacking 'miss' effects (blind being 90% would bypass this)

Apart from that I think both price and spirit of failure last much too long (30 sec at any spec) the same goes for some curses hexes, namely faintheartedness, shadow of fear, their short recharge simply does not warrant the really long duration.

Also, the hex removal is really lacking, cover hexes make spot hex removal almost useless (especially considering most spot hex removal has a longer recharge than cover hexes) whereas big hex removals are all elite skills (with the exception of purge signet) which are generally 'humility food'.

To change this I would suggest cutting down the recharge of spot hex removal and maybe increasing the cast time of the more popular cover hexes (parasitic bond, conjure phantasm etc)

I really like the hexes in the illusion line though, admittedly some need buffs (Recurring Insecurity could be a really interesting hex if it weren't for it's synergy with soul barbs) with the exception of Migraine I think they're very well balanced. I think degen hexes in general are fine.

3) Skills/Skill Archetypes

I already covered hexes (lol pun!) in the paragraphs above so I won't discuss them here.

Shadow Stepping:
Starting with skill archetypes I think the main issue at the moment is Shadow Stepping: Recall has filled up the void that Shadow of Haste left behind almost flawlessly, basically you don't ever have to worry about dying on splits and you can rejoin the rest of your team instantly by teleporting back. I'm not sure what to do with this skill, maybe increasing the recharge of it to like 60 seconds or decreasing the range drastically.

About shadowstepping in general: I think it's a pretty cool mechanic that turned out totally wrong, while skills like return and death's retreat are really cool and work perfectly fine I think offensive shadow stepping has made positioning almost obsolete. Good monks/players used to be able to 'preprot'/'prekite' by watching warrior movement, shadow stepping has completely ruined this.

Thankfully the telewarrior spike meta seems to be behind us for the most part I still think offensive teleports are too strong, and maybe should be changed to 'half casting range' or simply receive a (longer) 'aftercast'.

Spirits:
Spirits, I'm gonna mention this because I really dont like this mechanic and how it works in practice, I wouldn't really know a good way to fix it though.

Chants/Shouts/Echos/Weapon spells:
I really like the concept of all of these, but my main problem is that they cannot be removed, this might not be the biggest issue at the moment but I think it might become more of a problem when people learn ways to abuse this (Oh and splinter weapon is pretty ridiculous)

On to specific skills, I think it's become apparent that the 'new' Glyph of Lesser Energy is way too strong for the required 'investment' (no attributes required) it has singlehandedly made almost every other energy management spell or skill obsolete. At this point unless you're running a certain caster build that needs a specific secondary (besides Ele) you're gimping yourself by not running this.

I'm aware that Izzy really likes how it plays, and I do agree that it made formerly 'unusable' skills like Panic, Shield of Regen and Shield of Deflection show up in the metagame, which I think is really cool. The main problem is that especially since the inspiration nerf, there's no viable non elite (or even elite) energy management skills anymore.

I think a good fix would be 'unnerfing' inspiration and changing Glyph Lesser to 1 spell but with a 15 second recharge time, or somehow tie it to Energy Storage.

Next up: Aegis, Izzy has stated that he dislikes static defense, Aegis is probably the ultimate static defense skill. "Partywide 50% block for ~10-14 seconds that also synergizes incredibly well with Glyph Lesser? Hell Yeah!"
Reduce the duration/recharge, or the block rate or completely revamp the skill for all I care, but right now it's much too strong for how easy it is to use.

The same goes for a few other static defensive skills like "Shields Up!" effectively destroying builds with over a certain number of Paragons and Rangers, and to a lesser extent wards (at least you can force people to move out of those by using AoE skills in them)

This was pretty much what I have to say, I might add some more stuff (maybe a summary

) later.

Post your thoughts!

Phelann · Mar 27, 2007, 11:13 PM // 23:13

the sky is blue? since when!

desp · Mar 27, 2007, 11:22 PM // 23:22

i think everything you said is wrong and izzy should listen to none of it
GOLE is just fine
IZZY likes gole. no need to explain on this further!

also i think we need more shadowstepping spells for next chap.

Tiyuri · Mar 27, 2007, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Excellent post, written in a way a developer can actually use. Good Job.

Blame the Monks · Mar 27, 2007, 11:59 PM // 23:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phelann

the sky is blue? since when!

QFT

789101112

s w o r d y · Mar 28, 2007, 01:15 AM // 01:15

no one ever mentions the game's greatest map - NOMAD'S!

tomcruisejr · Mar 28, 2007, 02:41 AM // 02:41

You want them all changed in favor of the build(s) that you like playing?

If not, ignore this post.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 28, 2007, 08:03 AM // 08:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomcruisejr

You want them all changed in favor of the build(s) that you like playing?

If not, ignore this post.

I want them changed so that they don't favor a particular playing style, if they randomize the map system however, I have no problem with maps staying as they are.

Byron · Mar 28, 2007, 04:00 PM // 16:00

I think maps have more to do with the quality of GvG than anything else. So I agree with what the OP has said there. When a map forces a team to fight 8v8, like that of jade or burning, it gives a huge advantage to the home team. They could, for example, bring 4 steady stance warriors with fear me spam and 4 monks. Or run some user-friendly spike.

Maps that scream split don't have such a drastic problem, imo, because the NPCs naturally give an advantage to the defending team in the split. Nontheless, a team can still abuse a splitting map.

I think the system of choosing your own hall needs to be reconsidered.

yesitsrob · Mar 28, 2007, 06:53 PM // 18:53

Great post. pretty much summarizes what blows about guild wars right now.

The number of Jade Isle gimmicks is reaching a limit which is just making GVG a bit unbearable. And a lot of guilds have resorted to running such lame shit. Ladder farming and all, pretty sad.

I also think the Steady Stance warriors were not nerfed nearlly enough. They are very strong, and just too simple to run for how powerful they are. Searing Flame spike falls under this categry too. (Sure, it's pretty easy to beat on a splittable home map like druids - getting it on Jade or Burning isle is just a whole other problem, though I'd still hesitate to call it a map issue :\ )

Aegis is bad - the rather common Aegis + Shield Up combo is fricking worse. The once viable "interrupt aegis with ranger" isn't so easy any more

. 2 very boring, very easy static defense skills which are rather hard to break through.

around · Mar 28, 2007, 07:48 PM // 19:48

Elemental bow string 4tw

yesitsrob · Mar 28, 2007, 07:58 PM // 19:58

they are still projectiles and will miss

around · Mar 28, 2007, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Ah, yes, only remember the bit about piercing damage.

One other question: does this mean stuff like Disrupting Dagger will miss, since it's a projectile?

IMMORTAlMITCH · Mar 28, 2007, 08:54 PM // 20:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by spawnofebil

Elemental bow string 4tw

As far as I know shields up now gives armor vs all projectiles (wands/spears/bows/staves and I was told it still works vs piercing damage like daggers too) apart from spells.

Ddagger is not affected by Shields Up I don't think

Homsar · Mar 28, 2007, 08:55 PM // 20:55

btw Izzy is working on a nerf for GOLE atm.

He wishes to move it to energy storage and scale it accordingly, reducing up to 21 energy at 16 EN. Apparently a leader of a guild in izzy's alliance suggested it to him.

Thom Bangalter · Mar 28, 2007, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Aegis needs a fix for all the smaller maps where you can get people far away from your party. I agree with everything in the original post.

examples:
burning, druids, corrupted.

Ensign · Mar 28, 2007, 09:48 PM // 21:48

Skills: The only real issue is that they're not balanced for competitive play, but for quasi-casual, 'that would be cool' play. It's just a philosophical difference that isn't unworkable, it just keeps the game from reaching anywhere near its potential. When skills are developed and tweaked to be one dimensional, it should not be a surprise that the builds that emerge end up being more one dimensional than their predecessors.

Maps: Biggest issue ATM. I don't think that you can make changes to individual maps to somehow balance it out - the reason being that the skills are balanced to promote Build Wars, and maps are a part of that as well. It's always going to be used as a significant advantage.

The easiest way to explain the problem with map choice is that when only one side gets to choose the map, the result is that only the most imbalanced and worst designed maps see play - because those are the maps that give teams the biggest potential advantage. When both sides have input on the maps being played, the best, most balanced maps end up seeing the most play, because those are the compromise maps. Hence, the best solution known is a combination of a thumbs up / thumbs down system on maps for automated play - to put more matches on the best maps, and predetermined, fixed maps for tournament play - to push play in the more extreme environments without giving one team a big advantage.

Soul Reaping: Should not be giving energy upon spirit deaths. Period. That mechanic was somewhat interesting when all of the spirits in the game were symmetrical Ranger spirits that you didn't neccessarily even benefit from - you could abuse it with the dedicated Necro builds back then, but you sacrificed a character to even try and make it. Ritualists broke the mechanic utterly by adding a slew of one sided spirits. Now you can create a spirit field of useful spirits that beat up opponents that try and come in, and as a cost your entire team is rewarded with more energy than they could possibly spend. While there are stronger solutions, simply removing energy from spirit deaths is the most expedient and lowest impact solution that would actually work.

"Victory or Death!": The effect of the shout itself does too much but otherwise the mechanic is a big part of what makes GvG a good format.

Hexes: Individual hexes that wreck someone should not last 30 seconds. They probably shouldn't even last 20 seconds. Diversion and Water hexes are done right, they're used tactically to cause a short term disabling of key targets. The long lasting, wreck you hexes don't encourage tactical play, they encourage burying as many hexes on targets as possible to wreck people for long periods of time.

It isn't an issue of hex removal vs hexes. It's an issue of there being hexes that *need* to be removed, period. Of course those hexes being very spammable only serves to make things worse.

Shadow Stepping: anything that lets you teleport all the way across the map is too strong. I would suggest putting a hard cap on all teleports, limiting the teleport effect to one aggro bubble in distance. The amount of time that you can create with a cross-map teleport is simply ridiculous and it really does make characters with the right defensive teleports virtually unkillable.

Chants/Weapons/Shouts: There's nothing fundamentally wrong with effects that can't be removed...as long as they are priced and scaled as effects that can't be removed.

Glyph of Lesser Energy: Of course it's too strong. But it's also the only real option left after the butchering of Inspiration. Power Drain still works, if you have a character that can make use of it. This is a continuing source of frustration in Guild Wars - characters need energy management to play Guild Wars. Glyph being (too) good enables all sorts of characters to be played that otherwise couldn't be, and once it's removed those characters go away as well.

Peace,
-CxE

Divinus Stella · Mar 28, 2007, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Well i'd hate to see them nerf GoLE, shifting it into storage would be ok, its a needed energy skill for elementalists but i can see why people object to it on monks, the way i see it is that energy has different values for different professions.

I think a lot of the hex hate is from broken soul reaping and bad maps, ive heard there will be a balance update for this HA weekend so perhaps we will see a soul reaping fix here.

Caros · Mar 28, 2007, 10:59 PM // 22:59

100% agree with op.

Sapper2289 · Mar 29, 2007, 01:41 AM // 01:41

There's a thread with the exact same complaints on every fansite I go to. With such wide consensus I'm not sure why Anet can't seem to fix the problems...

but yeah. 100% agree